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Vatican… *cough* freaks! *cough* 9 March 09

Posted by Fantastic Four in Grumpy Pants, Religion.
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Vatican pearls will not end anytime soon. I might just do a Vatican series…

Washing machine did more for women than Pill

FFS!

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1. jcilt - 9 March 09

The pill has absolutely done nothing good for women. If someone can call increasing a woman’s chances of getting breast cancer by over 40% good, experiencing emotional mood swings, depression, and oh yeah – death – as good (and this just a few among many of the frightening side effects) then maybe I will see the pill as a good thing. There is a better way to not get pregnant – it is called taking a cold shower. So I do not know the context of that quote, but I would take a washing machine over that crappy thing called the pill any day. At least one will keep me clean – the other just might kill me. But I can have lots of sex and not get pregnant…great tradeoff for potential death.

2. Gaye - 9 March 09

Hi,

Welcome and thanks for commenting. I think because I didn’t write anything besides linking the news, you have completely missed my point.

Two things made me laugh, one is the fact that it is incredibly wrong to think washing the laundry is women’s job. Just when I think oh the dark ages for women and the discrimination is on the way out, I see the clown men of the clergy emphasize no it’s a woman’s job to do the washing and it ‘s a blessing for women that the washing machine was invented. WRONG!

The other is that the comparision is the pill…. I do not argue that pill is the best thing that happened to women, but surely Vatican picked on it because it represents CONTRACEPTION.

Everything they do and say, there is always the dark agenda….. Like the excommunication in the case of the termination of pregnancy of the 9 year old who was continually sexually abused…

My question, I understand what you think about the pill. Tell me if you would please, what do you think about abortion, especially in the case of the poor 9 year old girl, whose pelvic hasn’t even developed to be able to handle labour… Who is only a child. Who should not become a mother because of a sick man raping her. What do you think?

3. jcilt - 10 March 09

Hi, Yes, I got what you were alluding to. I just was not accepting the inference without understanding the context. I did look up the article, and from what I could understand (the full article was not presented and neither was a link) the washing machine subject was just another item on a list of debated things.

” ‘The debate is still open. Some say it was the Pill, others the liberalisation of abortion, or being able to work outside the home. Others go even further: the washing machine,’ it added.”

The word “others” did not specify a Vatican official. Who are these others? If you read further, you will notice that one is a deceased feminist, of all people! But no mention of a Catholic at all, let alone a priest or the Pope.

“The long eulogy to the washing machine – for which the first rudimentary models appeared in the 18th century – highlighted ‘the sublime mystique to being able to ‘change the sheets on the beds twice a week instead of once’, quoting the words of late American feminist Betty Friedan.”

So it appears to me, based on the scanty information provided, that whoever wrote the article was easily taking it out of context, and carefully editing it to appear as if it were a Vatican sexist comment. Editing can, after all, work wonders, depending on how you tweak it.

1) They were not saying, or hinting, that it was a woman’s job to do the laundry. They were pointing to debates and comments of “others,” one of whom was a feminist. I suppose they should have added one of those tags, “the opinions presented within are not approved or endorsed by the Vatican, its affiliates, etc….” But I would think the fact that no one from the Vatican actually was quoted on the washing machine would have made it clear.

2) I really think the Vatican has more of a reason to hate the pill. For example, my best friend has breast cancer – and she took the pill all of her adult life. She hates the pill now, and knows she was lied to for years by the medical industry, as she is in amazing physical health otherwise and that pill always made her feel sick. I loathe the pill myself and would never subjugate my body to potential death and disease. I used to try so hard to get her off of it. It is infuriating that our society lets this death dealer run rampant, and no one stands up against it. Complete lack of respect for women to lie to them via the pill.

FInally, I do not believe the young girl was excommunicated, due to her age. As for the others, I understand that they incurred automatic excommunication, which means if they repent and are truly sorry, they will be welcomed back into the church. Excommunication is not as huge as it sounds – it just means you are not in spiritual communion with the faithful and have some grave sin you need to repent of to be welcomed back. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15301

I would have no idea how to handle a tragic situation like that. It seems like a complete loose/loose situation at every angle. I am just wondering how on earth a 9 year old girl was even able to get pregnant. I feel so sorry for her from both angles – if she had to have the child, and for the abortion. What is our culture doing to women that they are able to get pregnant at 9? Have you heard the debates that what we promote to our children is making young girls get their periods earlier? I question our cultures motivations and treatments towards women.

Sorry so long!

4. wisewebwoman - 10 March 09

To Jcilt:
I am so sick and sorry of the ‘blame the victim’ spoutings of people such as yourself.

“I am just wondering how on earth a 9 year old girl was even able to get pregnant.”

Well, maybe you could you try wondering about a helpless child raped since she was 6 (along with her handicapped sister) by a paedophiliac stepfather. Wonder about the mother (where the f*** was she when all this was going on?). Wonder about the abusive catholic church that condemns the only people who cared about her and her life – her doctors and her suddenly awake mother.

I honestly can’t believe any sentient being could wonder about a child’s pregnancy!!

And then as if you haven’t made enough of a point you go on to say:

“What is our culture doing to women that they are able to get pregnant at 9?”

My god, listen to yourself: “able to get pregnant”. She was consensual?

No, she was raped to the point of impregnation by one sick f***, who was not excommunicated by the sick catholic church.

But the savers of the life of this innocent child were.

5. wisewebwoman - 10 March 09

Gaye:
sorry for the rant, but this kind of thinking blows my top.
As to washing machines and the pill.
Sometimes I feel, when I read meaningless debates like this, that we have slid so far backwards.
the real issue is we are still earning 60% of what men earn in the same jobs with or without a washing machine.
What was that old saying about the fish and the bicycle? Ha!
XO
WWW

6. padraic2112 - 10 March 09

Gaye ->

I think you need to be a little more careful with your generalizations, here.

I can’t find the direct source to the quote in question, because L’Osservatore Romano isn’t fully published online, so I can’t verify who said what or what the context of the quote actually was. Note, though, that the newspaper is a newspaper, it’s not published Catholic dogma. The quote may very well have come from a reporter, or it may have come from a clergyman, but that’s not the same thing as coming from “the Vatican” at all… that’s sensationalist headlining by PerthNow and very bad reporting. It would be like claiming that the Vatican supported racial segregation because some student wrote that in an opinion piece in their Catholic university’s college newspaper.

While lots of Catholics say lots of stupid things, some of which are (IMO) unforgivable, it’s bad logic to assume that there is “always a dark agenda”. The Catholic church is not nearly so monolithic as people think it is, even on matters of abortion.

Regarding the excommunication story, a couple of notes. The 9 year old girl was not excommunicated, that was misreported. The doctors and the mother were announced to be excommunicated, but this is not necessarily remarkable, lots of people misunderstand what “excommunication” means. In the Catholic church, performance of an abortion results in what they call “latae sententiae”, basically an automatic excommunication. However, lots of non-Catholics (most Catholics in the U.S., for that matter) don’t understand that you are excommunicated latae sententiae for a *huge* laundry list of “sins”. Probably right now at least 70% of the Catholic laity is technically excommunicated latae sententiae; it doesn’t mean “you’re going to hell”, it means you’re no longer in a state of grace and you should not take communion until you receive reconciliation. That’s all. Those doctors and the mother should go to their parish priest and confess and receive penance and that’s the end of that “story”.

Now, of course, one can say that this is ridiculous on the face of it, since nobody in their right mind is going to take that sort of a risk and subject a 9 year old to a full term pregnancy. But if you accept the assumption of the church that life begins at conception, choosing to abort the pregnancy is still at best choosing the lesser of two evils. That doesn’t mean that you didn’t make the correct decision, but you should still confess that burden of sin (again, according to the church). An analogy that might explain better; if a police officer accidentally shoots and kills a unarmed burglary suspect, he’s violated the fifth commandment. Not unreasonably so, but he should partake of the sacrament of Reconciliation.

While there is certainly a lot of material to reference to criticize the Catholic church, it seems like far too often trivial matters are blown out of proportion and reported as examples of church insanity, where quite a bit of the good is completely disregarded or ignored. You didn’t see much reporting regarding the changes in L’Osservatore Romano (http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/179221?eng=y) when they happened.

7. jcilt - 10 March 09

“I am so sick and sorry of the ‘blame the victim’ spoutings of people such as yourself.”

First, I did not blame the victim. Nowhere did I say, “it is her fault.” I clearly stated that I felt sorry for her situation. I said this because I wanted to express my empathy for the situation that this child is in. I wanted to make sure I expressed that, but clearly I did not express it enough – so here we go: SHE IS A VICTIM OF A DISGUSTING CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY AND IS NOT AT ALL TO BLAME. I hope she finds healing after everything she has been through.

Neither did I say she was engaging in a consensual act. I again clearly stated that it is a tragic situation and that I feel for her position.

However, setting her unfortunate situation aside, I absolutely do question what our culture does to women. I am sure that, unless you have been living in a box, you have heard somewhere along the way the debates and suggestions that our modern preoccupation with sexuality has increased the rate that young women’s bodies mature. The way young children are exposed to sex in the media, the objectification of women, promotion of sexuality even to little children, etc. definitely concerns me and deeply saddens me. Why should a nine year old, whose body is not ready to bear a child, be menstruating? Could our culture be partly responsible for adding to her victimization? To be raped is horrible enough, and to be pregnant at the age of nine only compounds the matter. Could we, as a culture, have prevented such a double victimization?

Of course, this is a controversial question without a definite answer. But I am open to the fact that women can be abused not only sexually by one person, but subtly by a culture as well. I hope this makes it clear that I was not blaming her or calling her rape consensual in any way.

8. Nick - 10 March 09

This is a very interesting debate. Thanks, Gaye, for raising the subject and thanks to the other commenters for their different points of view. It’s made me think a lot more carefully about all this. I don’t think I have anything else to add right now, except that yes, women are being abused by the whole culture in many different ways, in particular the early sexualisation of very young girls for the sake of profit and men’s sexual obsessions.

9. Baino - 11 March 09

I haven’t had time to research it yet but I hear the Vatican has a push to re-introduce indulgences! That way sick fucks like this can pay their way out of sin. I’ll have to come back. . .interesting debate here Chika

10. Gaye - 11 March 09

I do not think that men should decide who gets to be forgiven and who not. I don’t recognise anyone between myself and God. There is no authority to tell me what I should or shouldn’t do in order to avoid going to hell. I recognise no authority of men who run the church / churches / Vatican simply laying rules then intimidating via threat of hell or promise of heaven. God, if all knowledgable and powerful, is bound to be neither stupid nor naive.
These men who make the rules and abuse the blindly faithful will have to answer sooner or later.
No good comes out of Vatican, I am sorry, this is what I believe in.
If they came out of their little comfort zone, little club of clergy and actually experienced real life, I am sure many of their decisions and teachings and practices would be different.

Thank you all for commenting and participating in this debate/discussion, please do continue.

There is more I will write as a reply to each comment but I have to go to work, so catch you all later.


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